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What is Evil? Discussion
By DragonHawk

In the thread about what I have learned on my sojourn in the UAE I was talking about the Darkness of Creation. But darkness is a term we often use to describe something that is negative or is having a negative effect in our lives. To me there seems to be a link between the two terms in terms of what we "seed" in our lives. Personally, I don't believe in evil as a separate force from Creator, in opposition to Creator and not under the direct control of Creator. I believe that evil is man-made concept used to justify Man's inability to look Within at attitudes and aspects of our selves that convention would presume were far from perfect. I seeded my Journey in the UAE by bringing the Light of Spirit into the Darkness of the womb of Mother Earth: creating a Sacred Union to give birth to the Journey. Although I had known intellectually about the Union of Father Sky and Mother Earth for some time, I had never sought to enact that Union to "create" something for myself. Over the last twelve months, I had seen the economy of the UK disintegrate as the credit crunch took hold. Job prospects in my field, as a cost-and contract consultant in the construction and property industries had disintegrated accordingly. Fear drove me to create the Union, as the UAE property market was still buoyant despite the credit crunch starting to be felt in most areas of the rest of the World. Within a month of arriving in the UAE, the markets changed here and deteriorated much more rapidly than in the UK or US to a position worse than those markets, at least in the short term. Unlike the UK, the UAE does not really have government spending programs: the vast majority of construction is privately funded, and when foreign investors pulled their money out in an unprecedented hurry, particularly in Dubai, the property market had a nasty shock. Fear built on Fear and developers started cancelling, or at least postponing indefinitely, the majority of projects that had not yet started and even some that had, but were in the early stages, such as the project I was involved with.

If we look back over history, and events leading up to events like WWI & II, we can see a similar fear mentality has been a factor in most wars, terrorist attacks and other perhaps more mundane everyday events one might consider "evil": murders and the like. Fear prevents us looking Within, in case we do not like what we find there. For my part, the fear was financial and goes back to scarcity conditioning from my childhood. But it's easy to see how fear builds on fear and its consequences if we do not stand back from what is creating the fear and alter our perceptions. If we allow the fears to build, we constantly seed lessons in the Darkness, rather than seed energies that will fulfil our desires. Each lesson reinforces the fear and our attempts to avoid the fears seem to diminish our ability to retreat from them. If we keep avoiding looking Within for long enough, and after enough lessons, I think we run the risk or entering a darker (in the traditional sense of the word) phase of fear. Hitler's fears of failure and rejection (and probably many more fears) being a case in point in this respect and an example of how fears can lead to what is often perceived as "evil".

As I think I said in the original thread, my decision to come to the UAE was mot evil, but it did lead to a series of difficult lessons, that, given my own knowledge of lessons, and a little help from my friends, I was able to navigate. However, it is easy to imagine that if I had not done the work I had done on my spiritual path, how I might have considered blaming some external force or someone for the situations I found myself in, as I did at first as the lessons started to unfold: blaming my company for the mess I found myself. In fairness, they had not acted as they had said they would, so there was a degree of culpability on their part, but the basic situation was one I had to resolve Within, as it was me who was experiencing this lesson and I had brought the Journey that led to the lesson into Creation. So that's my perception of how evil is created. Even in the case of a man like Hitler, I am not convinced that evil is not an aspect of the Light. Perhaps mankind has a lesson to learn that Spirit could not bring about in any other way than the way it did through Hitler. I'm in no way trying to justify Hitler's actions, just understand them and clarify my perception of what evil is.

On an everyday level, people speak of dark (as I the traditional "evil" connotation) entities. From my interpretation of evil above, these would be thought forms created by an individual out of fear. The thing I am not convinced about is whether these thought forms can exist outwith an individual and obtain a life of their own. I can conceive that these forms could be passed from one individual to another: say from one person who holds a particular fear to another who shares that fear: almost in a form of mirroring. But to me that fear has to be already within us. If we hold a healthy attitude in an area where another holds fears, surely any "evil" associated with that particular fear would not be transferable: we have learnt that lesson, and assuming this was not, as Jamie Sam's puts it, a "pop quiz" that fear would not affect us? In which case, any "dark entity" that that fear creates would not affect us: would we even perceive it? If we did would it have any hold over us? I cannot conceive that it would. The only reason I can conceive that we might perceive it is to Witness it to be able to understand the other persons actions and reactions. On an individual basis then, evil would be a entity we have created or one created by another in our close proximity that mirrors a fear or issue that lies unresolved Within us. On a community or national basis this would a fear or issue that the peoples of a particular community or nation hold that is unresolved. On an international basis this would be an unresolved issue mankind faces: 9/11 and it's resultant War on Terror and Axis of Evil would therefore be something like an inability to live in peace as a race. But in all cases, this "evil" would be a lesson that assists us in moving forward: how then can this be separate from Creator, as in the final analysis is assists us on our path? If we perceive negative energy in our lives, surely this is a sign that we need to take note of that energy and investigate why it is effecting us? If we perceive that another is sending us this negative energy and do not seek to look Within, surely we are missing an opportunity to heal an aspect of our self/Self that needs to come to healing and we are doing our Self a disservice?

Jimmy WhiteBear:
The "Great Void" is the place where everything materializes from. It is also called the "The Great mystery". It is where darkness has precedence, The unknown!

Whether or not Creator's plan was to create "Good and evil" means little. Balance is the object of our quest in life and in order to find balance we must confront the darkness within. I have met "Evil" and whether or not it was a choice or a victim of upbringing, Evil is real, we have a choice where some others don't. They don't have choice for whatever the reason. We can choose to do evil things or choose to do right, do good, to be at our spiritual best!

Evil can be a Mask of Fear, anger, hurt and so on. Some choose to deal with this definitely, some are unable to choose the way they deal with it for whatever the reason, be it Spirit or environment.

Wynsong:
"It's the devil in disguise
Oh yes it is,
The Devil in Disguise.
"

Sorry I was listening to an Elvis hour special...so that song flew into my mind when I read your title. If God lives within us...God being a human construct around a force of being that we don't understand fully and have capsulized down to whatever form and label the individual uses...(I was brought up calling it God)

Then is follows that the Devil will also live within us...(and for me will still be a human construct to encapsulate a force that we don't fully understand, or want to)... So I can live with your description of how fear and evil are dancing a co-creative dance within individuals and within communities. Fear also lives in other beings... Animals display fear, and while it may result in a display of aggressive behavior, it rarely would be typified as evil by us. Yet primates can organize to commit atrocities on each other, and on other species...and I might look at those acts of genocide as 'evil'. (Interestingly enough I read about that first in a book called The Lucifer Principle ). I'm inclined to not believe in evil as a force, but as a definition we attach, often after the fact, to behaviors that were generated by fear, greed, hubris, ...so as I type this, I would say those behaviors are caused by shadow issues that aren't dealt with...either by an individual or by a society/community.

Having said that, I don't limit Shadow to 'negative' behavioral forces...for me, Shadow is all that moves through us, and moves us from a place of unconsciousness... Some people use Light Shadow vs Dark Shadow to delineate the difference between behaviors they see as Good, Desirable, and Creative vs those they see as Destructive, Bad, and Evil...I don't...

Issues that drive a person’s behavior are shadow, regardless of what kind of behavior they produce in the Light (where we can all see it). So if a person is driven to be Nice to their own detriment...people seeing the behavior might call that person's service as Good, they may get the good version of Martyr attached to their name...yet the behavior can be as destructive, especially to the person who can't bring their need to be Nice to the light of consciousness...and to those closest to them. The scope of destruction may not be as wide as those whose Shadow issues and charismatic abilities combine and can inspire a nation or a movement, the likes of Hitler. This is one of the reasons I like the election of Obama. In this decision, by a country, they have chosen a person to lead that seems to me to be operating more consciously than the other choices...(which is a big switch for someone who was a Hilary supporter). I see Obama as potentially the symbolic Healed Masculine. We have the choice of moving forward on a new map of union between the Masculine and Feminine in Consciousness, that has never before been available...

During Hitler's time, we got Churchill (thank Goodness), but Churchill was not a healed masculine...he was a wonderful example of the Wounded Masculine, as were most of the leaders of that time... and while he won the war, the wounded masculine decisions he and his co-leaders made at that time have created many of the 'evils' we are now dealing with, and have dealt with for the last 60 years. I don't know if as a species we will ever actually step out of the vibrational space in which we have been living for so long, and ascend (as some people call it)...like the Mayan's were supposed to have done...I do think that more and more people are living with more consciousness, so their shadows issues are not driving their behaviour (collective and individual) in the same way as they would have in the past.

WWI and WWII were driven by economic forces as strongly as they were driven by any other forces (as I understand it, and that is minimally)...so we sit again at the brink of potential . . . We get to choose how we move forward...with a new vision, or a repeat of the old stories... This is the story of Parisfal again...will we leave the Castle of the Fisher King, not having asked the question...and go out in our Shiny Armor, doing 'Good' for another 40 years, before we get a chance to ask the question again? My own thoughts are we need to each make the choice for our self. . . and not be waiting on a 'leader' to come an lead us to the promised land. My thoughts...

Jimmy WhiteBear:
I think that evil is an entity that is forever biting at our backs, Our choice is to either accept the evil for what it is or reject the evil and grasp the positive aspects that will lead us forward in personal growth. Evil spirits take over our bodies and cuz' us to do things we would not normally do. It is EGO, Fear, attempt to dominate others and inflict ones will upon them. Control of others using anger, rage and fear.

Evil possession changes our personality and forces us to act in a way we normally would not. To do battle with the evil forces in the spirit world requires great courage and fortitude, integrity, Love in the purest of form. Something we call "Unconditional Love". This is a force that evil is incapable of fighting because evil knows nothing of "unconditional love" If it did, it could no longer be evil. If one has never experienced Evil and Unconditional love, Evil will use every trick it knows to break it down, Evil can be defeated by unconditional love. Spirit guides and the animal spirits continually force evil back into its dark realm where although it may surface again to create havoc, It will never have the same strength it has when it first met with Spiritual goodness. I met someone once that pretended to be a very spiritual person but as time moved on, her color showed itself and she did everything she could to split and divide goodness. Although she was successful in her attempts, the one thing she couldn't succeed in was causing fear. She brought out much anger that still today is a battle. Rage, rages on and slowly diminishes, This made Evil more impotent then even she realizes. Tho' there were many that listened to evil in the name of spirit, I truly believe that at some point they will see it for what it is. Cowardly Fear!

Paah Wenchokws:
From my perspective "evil" does not exist unless we humans create it. It is a mask that we put on.

WhiteCrow:
Hi Hawk, Funny to see this topic up. One of my first posts ever on the internet was a reply to the same question. That was ... eight years ago, on a message forum that wasn't actually aimed at the spiritual, which made for some interesting replies.

I still remember what I wrote then. I wrote that light and/or dark aren't evil. That they are merely Yin/Yang - the balancing. I wrote that I did believe in evil and I saw it as the "twisting" force - the carnival mirror that warps and distorts for its own purposes, using light, dark, "good"... whatever it could to get its own way.

I don't think my opinion has changed much since then, except now I'd probably drop such an emotive word as "evil" (Old B*sh kind of killed it for me with his whole "War on Evil" rubbish) and maybe go for something like "harmful" or "destructive".

I'm really not sure if it matters to me where it came from or if Creator is involved, but then I don't feel I have to know everything in order to be or grow. I used to, but I'm learning to let go and trust the current to take me where I need to be rather than constantly tiring myself out trying to swim to the shore to see what's there.

The word "evil" might be man-made, but the force that caught man's attention has always been there and no, I don't think it is Chaos - I don't think it helps us grow. Chaos does help us grow and can use this energy we call evil to our growth advantage, but the thing we call "evil" isn't interested in our growth or even in us. It just is and sometimes it comes into contact with us and sees opportunities. I don't think evil is a good word for it at all, but I can't think of any that fits what I'm trying to say. Yes, it uses human fear, but no, we don't create it. We create our own fear and sometimes this energy will latch onto that and use it, but it doesn't come from us. My experiences of coming into contact with it is that it felt beyond us - very impersonal, totally lacking emotion. And yes, there are entities that exist in this state of being as well as entities that have been sucked in to help feed it. I suspect what we once called "demons" could be more victims trapped and used by this hungry force. oh wow! I think I got it. Humans perceive "moral" or "immoral" - good or evil. That isn't what this is - just as I described 8 years ago, it's not good or evil - it's the distortion for its own purposes. This energy is AMORAL. So yes, the word "evil" is utterly wrong, but yes I do believe an amoral destructive energy does exist in the universe. Where it comes from...? I'm not sure, I do know what it craves. It craves energy. It "eats" energy. It seems to have no ability to create its own energy and so it takes. It's parasitic and not necessarily harmful except when it latches onto the wrong type of person or situation. And because it eats energy it tends to be attracted to the stronger human energy emotions - hate, rage, terror. It creates those situations to create the energy it feeds off, but it doesn't actually wish us harm. It's more psychopathic than evil - it just doesn't care. If I had to name it I'd call it HUNGER. A huge empty never-filled hunger for energy. A spiritual black hole. As such I believe you are right about our refusal to look within aiding and abetting this thing's survival, but we don't create it. We're not that important. We'd like to think we are, but we aren't. There are worlds and worlds-within-worlds beyond ours. There are things that don't know we exist and wouldn't care if they did. Yes, we are all part of the One, but that doesn't make us the top of the food chain, but that's just my opinion. I disagree with fear being the main key. Psychopaths feel no fear and are very capable of doing incredibly negative (seemingly evil) things. I have a family member who has a personality disorder that makes her incapable of comprehending some kinds of emotions. It makes this person very dangerous at times. Not evil, but not fearful either. In fact one of her problems is the fact she has no concept of fear at all. So while I do agree that humans behave irrationally and violently through fear I also know they can act just as negatively when they feel no fear at all. I think the key lies elsewhere, but at the moment I have no answers to that feeling.

I also agree that trying to avoid fear doesn't work. I learnt that in my early twenties. I started having panic attacks and my own fear of triggering them made them snowball worse and worse. In the end I stopped them by not fighting them. By simply allowing them they would wash through me and be gone in seconds or minutes where before they'd been lasting up to 12 hours at a time. So yes, fighting fear is disastrous - you have to embrace it and set it free. In which case, any "dark entity" that fear creates would not affect us: would we even perceive it? If we did would it have any hold over us? I cannot conceive that it would.

I agree with the fact it would have no hold on us unless we allowed it to. I've had others send such things my way since I was a teen. I never realized what they were until I was in my 20s. As a teen I thought they were very vivid nightmares. Did any of them harm me? No. All they could do is try to create fear and hope I'd harm myself. What does interest me is realizing that they probably were all sent in fear. The ones from my teens were sent by a woman involved in Satanism. I never knew this at the time though. In fact I never knew what she was involved in until about 15 years later. Looking back I can see which "things" came from her, but at the time I never had a clue. I knew some things weren't dreams, but I had no knowledge or experience to help me deal with that fact. I never had any problems other than with people involved with Satanism. That doesn't mean I think satan exists, but I do think the "Hunger" energy feeds of the believers in his existence. And they can be dangerous. To not recognize that fact is foolish.

It's not about creating fear, but about staying alert. I don't fear snakes, but living in Africa I learnt how to tell a poisonous snake from a safe one. That's just being sensible. Same goes for what you dabble in elsewhere. Not everything out there cares about us or our growth. Some things are like snakes - worth being aware of. One of my dream experiences was dreaming of a ritual murder. I saw the face of the murderer. Two days later they had his identikit in the paper. His victim survived. At the time the cult were pixking up loners at bars and doing things to them. This time they crucified the man, but he managed to tear himself off the cross and get out the house where passing cars saw him and alerted the authorities. I dreamt it was a metal cross, but otherwise the rest was spot on. Did I create this out of fear? Did the poor drunk guy picked up at the bar (they told him there was a party with free booze they were going to) create his situation through fear? Did those of this cult act on fear? My dream man told me they sacrificed to the sea serpent... was this true? Did they have an entity they feared and thought they needed to appease? I have no idea and quite frankly I don't care. I was warned, but couldn't use it to help anyone. So I'm gathering I was warned purely to remind me that there are snakes out there - literally and spiritually - and it is better to avoid them. I don't go poking my hand under rocks, of any kind.

But I'd like to digress slightly here and point out that the fact this Hunger is amoral does not mean that harmful intent cannot harm. Science has already proved that as a fact. Years ago scientists found that when a group of people were told to aim negative emotions/thoughts to particular people seen in a room of test subjects (who thought they were there for a completely different reason and therefore not at all affected by fear) the test subjects negativity was aimed at showed a slight lowering of their immune system.

If we perceive negative energy in our lives, surely this is a sign that we need to take note of that energy and investigate why it is effecting us? If we perceive that another is sending us this negative energy and do not seek to look Within, surely we are missing an opportunity to heal an aspect of our self/Self that needs to come to healing and we are doing our Self a disservice?

Not necessarily. All my 20s and 30s I thought I was responsible for how my madder family members reacted to me. I did exactly what you suggest here, but then I took it further. I tried changing myself to avoid their harming. It didn't work because it came from them and I couldn't change them. It never was about me at all. I wasted so much of my life on them. I'll never make that mistake again. In other words I feel we also have to be careful of losing the plot by thinking things have to be deep and complex. Sometimes all we need to do is accept things are as they are and get on with life. Or, to steal a quote from Groucho ... sometimes we need to accept that a cigar is just a cigar?

Paah said “From my perspective "evil" does not exist unless we humans create it. It is a mask that we put on.” Which is my perspective... But I wanted to ask those who do believe in Evil as a force separate from our own individual mind, that can be sent out to harm others, what purpose such a notion holds and how they square their belief in such an evil with the individuals ability to choose their own reality?

But I wanted to ask those who do believe in Evil as a force separate from our own individual mind, that can be sent out to harm others, what purpose such a notion holds and how they square their belief in such an evil with the individuals ability to choose their own reality? Your question is very limiting, DH. You have aimed at a very narrow target group and, reading it through, although I believe in evil I don't fit your criteria, but since I think I'm the only one here who said I believe in evil I'll give your question a try.

I must say though that I don't see how anyone can answer "what purpose a notion holds" since it's like an atheist asking a believer what purpose God holds. There'll never be an answer that satisfies both sides.

As to the rest... I don't see where there is a problem with choosing a reality and sending out evil. What if the person you are dealing with has chosen a reality where he/she believes they can send out evil - will their reality not work because your reality does not accept evil or will your two realities clash or...? If we accept that each person is able to create their reality than we have to accept that they can create very different realities.

But I'm not one who thinks that we've reached such a god-like state just yet. I think we are still dabbling on the very edge of manifesting. In other words - the day I walk on water is the day I'll believe my reality really is MY reality. ;)

If you read my reply here you'll already know that I don't believe in Biblical "evil" so a lot of your question doesn't fit my reality already, but I will say that I do know that belief in something isn't relevant to its existence.

In the book "Shaman, Healer, Sage" by Alberto Villoldo there's a story of how he tells a shaman that he cannot be cursed because (in his reality) his theory is that you have to believe to be affected. It's been some time since I read the book, so I'm adlibbing here, but basically the shaman laughs and they part company. Time passes and Villodo's back home from his travels... and becomes suddenly violently ill. After two or so hellish days the phone rings and the shaman's voice says "Do you believe now?"

Does that make a curse evil? I'm not sure, but I am sure that thinking something can't harm me isn't enough whereas being aware of potential harmful things usually makes creatures survive longer. ;)

Wynsong:
Your memory of Alberto's story is good Crow. I believe people's intent creates problems for other people all the time. One can call it sorcery because they are imposing their intent on another without the other's permission. Is that evil or is that ignorance, and if it is ignorance and the ignorance is big enough, so that the intent is forced on a large group of people (like slavery for example) is that more evil than when someone just overwhelms one other person's ability to create their own destiny? I still think evil is more a definition we apply when we create stories around what we perceive to have happened, AND I believe that people consistently and mostly through ignorance of the process mess in other people's ability to create their own reality (do sorcery). If I really want a specific future to happen, and I put intent behind it, and dream it, and pray for it....and it isn't about me living on a deserted island, then by definition, I am dreaming a future that will touch others. If they have complete free will to choose to touch my dream or walk away, and they know that, and can exercise it, then all is good. . . but how many do?

Can my children resist consciously and with love, my dreams for them (I hope so, but in case they can't, I try hard to avoid dreaming for them)? Is it an evil, when I dream for them?, or when a parent dreams for their child...or a child dreams for a parent...etc., etc., etc.... To me, this is the crux of impeccability. ... Sorcery happens around us and to us all the time...by my definition, which was shaped and formed by Alberto Villoldo's work...It is the basis of how humans interact with each other at the energetic ...Redfield also touched on it in The Celestine Prophecy...that we are constantly exchanging energy, and the how of that exchange would also be the how of the definition of sorcery and evil... If energy is taken, shaped, controlled by another without it being freely given and exchanged in ayni (right balance/reciprocity), then I guess we need a word for that unequal, unbalanced exchange...and we could call it evil or sorcery, OR we could call it nature, as in human nature. If some are able to do it, and do, is it different from the big cat having claws and speed and stealth and taking out an antelope?

I sit with these kinds of questions all the time... As humans we have the ability to think, just another skill set by my reckoning, nothing that makes us special...and we use it to create and to destroy...same as every other species uses their skill sets.

Some believe we are moving into a time of great enlightenment, a dividing of the ways...some will live and be in harmony with all, the rest will die/shift to a new dimension/whatever ...Armageddon, by some definitions...some see this as a time of urgency to up their vibrational levels so that they'll be with the chosen...And they are dreaming a future that is full of that reality...and they see it as LIGHT...Good...the Coming of a New Dawn.... Yet it could be argued quite effectively as evil...as the THEM that aren't able to, or willing to up their vibrational field will be, in their scenario, no longer able to live as they have in the past. No longer able to live what they would dream for themselves. Who is doing the dreaming here?...Whose intent is the stronger? For me, this is the essence behind what I say first at my classes on Energetic Self Defense. . . I'd rather sit beside someone I knew was capable of sorcery and knew it, that someone who thinks of

them self as a one way transmitter of Goodness and light. ...We are all capable of sorcery, and thinking we are not, is far more dangerous that knowing we can, in my mind. The knowing gives us the opportunity to act from IMPECCABILITY...which isn't to say doing what is consensually accepted as good...just from a place of pure intent, with knowledge of its ramifications...Like the cat who takes down an antelope. I don't know how many of you have read Twilight...or the other books in the series, but in the end that is what the author is writing about...Vampires who make a choice to not feed on humans, vampires who choose to follow their instincts...not right or wrong, just choices...and how balance has to be maintained or the imbalances bring havoc. It is an interesting fictional (maybe) story about something that is commonly considered to be 'evil' seen through a new understanding.

DragonHawk:
Crow, I had read you earlier post, but to be honest the examples you gave, spoke more to me of situations were attitudes/emotions such as fear had been so utterly boxed that they were completely denied or externalized. In my journey over the last few years I tried so hard to find my feminine that I denied my masculine. As I looked back over the last week, I realized that all the little niggles I have come across in that time were all my masculine saying "look I'm still here and I can cause you problems if you deny me": the more I tried to subdue my masculine the more it came to the fore: and came to the fore in ways it appeared I had little control over. I can't count the number of times I've said something in the last few years and afterwards wondered "where did that come from?"?

The one thing that I did consider could be possible was the experiment thing: but then it came to me that if I was in a room with whole heap of strangers doing an experiment of any kind, that situation would cause me a little stress, which would explain the drop in immune system response in the experiment. Having said that, my belief is that, all semantic arguments aside, describing what Joe Public would understand by the term evil, evil is thought and thoughts are the stuff of life, and can be sent out: so I wouldn't disagree with the results of the experiment.

My basic premise would be that evil is a thought and that we can project our thoughts, so yeh we can project evil. You and I have both been involved in a situation elsewhere where a mutual acquaintance has come across someone with a potentially dark mind who has spread that darkness to the point where you and I and quite a few others are now aware of that darkness and potentially feeding it. If that situation had not arisen, you and I could have used the time we put into that situation, however brief, in other ways: the friend of our mutual acquaintance had got a whole group of people putting time and energy into their situation, which they would not have done had they not created the situation. At a very base level, in the original classical sense of the word, anything that distracts us from the contemplation of the Divine, was considered "evil". Demons, Genes etc., etc., were, at that time, all positive "intermediary" aspects of creation, rather akin to "saints" or "angels" in modern mythos. It was not until St Augustine's theory of original sin in the 400's AD that things started to change and the notion of evil came to mean something outside of the Light and separate from the individual. The Devil card in the Tarot illustrates the original intent of what Joe Public might call evil today.

The original archetype, the Devil's purpose was to entice spiritual matter into physical form to complete the Creation. As I explained elsewhere about seeding: as the Creation descended, and just as heavier elements decay to become lighter elements, at each stage of Creation the impetus to Create must be passed down. In esoteric Judeo-Christian mythos when first consciousness was achieved it still recognized unconsciousness and wanted to return to that state, so needed "distractions" to make it want to descend further into manifestation. The Devil provided those destructions.

"Contemplation of the Divine" does not have to mean spiritual practice, it can mean any Will-Full productive activity that moves us forward in learning or manifestation in the mundane. It does of course refer to spiritual practice, and in that respect the Devil's purpose is to distract us into remaining in the mundane world: to test if our Will is strong enough to carry on the Journey back to Wholeness.

“Your question is very limiting, DH. You have aimed at a very narrow target group”

Yes, It was aimed at people who do believe, all semantics apart, that evil (in Joe Public's understanding of that term) is a force in itself, and separate from an individual’s mind.

“Although I believe in evil I don't fit your criteria,”

So you don't believe evil is force unto itself separate from an individual’s mind?

“I must say though that I don't see how anyone can answer "what purpose a notion holds" since it's like an atheist asking a believer what purpose God holds. There'll never be an answer that satisfies both sides.”

I have explained the purpose the notion of evil holds to me and I wanted to ask what it holds to the "target" group I defined . If you believe in something, then there must be basis for taht belief. Whether someone else accepts that basis is immaterial: it's the believer's basis I am interested in.. I know some very logical folks who believe in evil as a force in its own right, and have a totally illogical fear response to the notion of evil, believing they are being attacked by "evil" but who have no basis for that belief that they can elucidate When I was a kid, my mum used to run around the house with holy water when it thundered and lightened: growing up in rural Ireland in the 1940's, all sorts of superstitions pervaded her conditioning creating all sorts of fears, that, as young boy she passed on to me. I was terrified of thunder and lightning well into my teenage years, until I learnt in science class that it wasn't God's anger.

“will their reality not work because your reality does not accept evil or will your two realities clash or...? “

It depends on the strength of convictions of the parties. It would not work if the person who was to be the target of such intent had a strong enough belief that evil could not be sent out, and visa versa if the person sending the intent was stronger.

But again here, we are talking here about evil being sent by a person: a thought form: not evil as a separate force that randomly attaches to someone.

But I'm not one who thinks that we've reached such a god-like state just yet.

I think we have, and we always have had that state, it's just our conception of what that state is skewed by the false doctrines of religion, making that state out to something far more fantastical than it actually is! If we had not, the UK would be a dense forest and you and I would be living somewhere in Continental Europe still wandering around in loincloths and animal skins, hunting boar and gathering berries.

I think we are still dabbling on the very edge of manifesting. In other words - the day I walk on water is the day I'll believe my reality really is MY reality. ;)

and the walking on water thing is a very good example of the false doctrines of religion! What Jesus more likely did was overcome emotions than physically walk on water: that's assuming of course that a man named Jesus actually lived 2000 years ago or so.

but I will say that I do know that belief in something isn't relevant to its existence.

in your reality....that may not be the case in mine or another person's reality

I've got a copy of Shaman Healer Sage, though it's a long time since I read it, so I can't remember whether I thought it was good bad or indifferent, but your example is a very good one in terms of my idea of how evil is transferred: doubt regarding conviction is created in one person by someone with stronger conviction (the Shaman). Whilst Villoldo is churning over the Shaman's words and not being strong enough in his own convictions: his mind is distracted from more fruitful endeavors based on his own will (rather than the will of the Shaman and he becomes ill). You could say that fruitful use of our own will invokes Divine Will to assist us in our endeavors and strengthen our convictions. Lack of our own will means there is no Divine Will and we are susceptible to the will of others but I am sure that thinking something can't harm me isn't enough whereas being aware of potential harmful things usually makes creatures survive longer.

As with anything else, there is a balance to be achieved: to be aware of something is one thing, but succumb another: and the strength of our convictions seems to be key: it's back to the age of masculine/feminine it seems to me: the feminine receptiveness perceived the danger and the masculine will either succumbs or rises above it

Wynsong:
“As I looked back over the last week, I realized that all the little niggles I have come across in that time were all my masculine saying "look I'm still here and I can cause you problems if you deny me": the more I tried to subdue my masculine the more it came to the fore: and came to the

fore in ways it appeared I had little control over. I can't count the number of times I've said something in the last few years and afterwards wondered "where did that come from?"?

I would call this self-sorcery, Self-evil, Shadow, any other term that one might use...to deny some part of yourself, to deny its right to live and create and destroy is to not act from IMPECCABILITY, by my definition of the word. To not be impeccable with your Self, and to treat your Self with compassion....All of you, even the parts you do not approve of. But that is my journey, so take it for how and whether it resonates with you...or toss it, as you will. Alberto had decided he had won the bet with the shaman, because he did not get sick when he first arrived home (the shaman explained later that he had become distracted and was unable to do it at the time that was prearranged). It was some days after he had forgotten about it, that he became ill (when the shaman, on shaman time, got around to it)...and the illness stopped the moment the sorcery stopped (although the physical ramifications of the illness took longer to recover from, as the body needed to rehydrate and re-balance in terms of electrolytes)...just for those who want to know the story. And it is story. Alberto's story, that he uses to teach, and to illustrate his journey, a journey from a western need for the known and the unknown (academia in his case) to the shamanic place of living well within the unknowable. Now I have a question, about evil as an outside force for you Dragonhawk... Do you believe that other levels of vibrational energy exist, that resonate at vibrational levels that are higher than humans, making them undetectable to our senses? And if you believe that such entities exist, that some may feed on the energy of humans? And if you believe that that is true, could it not be the place that people you refer to as "Joe Public" (is this the same kind of guy as "Joe the Plumber" from the American election), might have come up with the concept of evil?

WhiteCrow:
Wynn, Your reply second last reply said things I'd felt, but had no coherent words for. My most favourite was: “ I'd rather sit beside someone I knew was capable of sorcery and knew it, that someone who thinks of them self as a one way transmitter of Goodness and light. ...We are all capable of sorcery, and thinking we are not, is far more dangerous that knowing we can, in my mind. The knowing gives us the opportunity to act from IMPECCABILITY...which isn't to say doing what is consensually accepted as good...just from a place of pure intent, with knowledge of its ramifications...Like the cat who takes down an antelope.” YES. This is something I've always felt and just thank you so much for summing it up so well.

DragonHawk:
Wynsong, I'm rushing through, so I will come back to your first post...But re the last point of the second post: “Do you believe that other levels of vibrational energy exist, that resonate at vibrational levels that are higher than humans, making them undetectable to our senses? “

Yes, but at this point in time I believe that such entities are part of us: and that they reside "within". As I've said above: hydrogen created helium and so forth down the periodic table of the

elements until we get to Lawrencium (and probably heavier elements we are not aware of) and our souls, as part of the Creation, have been at every stage of that creation and decay back to helium process, and so everything that is now, has been, and shall be is within our soul's memory: including anything we perceive as higher or lower energy.

“And if you believe that such entities exist, that some may feed on the energy of humans?”

Yes, but only from the perspective that I described in reply to Crow or as you point out, in respect of how we thwart ourselves.

“And if you believe that that is true, could it not be the place that people you refer to as "Joe Public" (is this the same kind of guy as "Joe the Plumber" from the American election), might have come up with the concept of evil?”

Yeh, I think Joe Public, and Joe the Plumber are one and the same: you're average guy on the street I'm not entirely sure what you asking here Wynsong: whether you are asking if evil does exists, Joe Public perceives it as a higher vibrational energy or this is where Joe Public has placed evil ie in the former, evil exists separate from man, or in the latter you agree with me that evil is an aspect of man? Either way my answer would really be the same: western culture (and a lot of eastern too) sprung from similar pagan beliefs that influenced the Judeo-Christian beliefs which inform all modern law and societal norms in the west and things have been this way since the 600's at least. As I said above in reply to Crow, it is from that culture that we get notions of evil as a potentially harmful force separate from the Light: and in my opinion, the interpretation of evil as separate from Light is a misconception, whether deliberate or otherwise. If you look at the NA notion of Heyoka: an archetype that basically behaves badly to show us how to do things right, we find the original interpretation of the Devil: an aspect of the Light. I am not sure if the religions thread I did a few years back is in the library or not, but from that research I did at that time, I didn't find a notion of a force separate from the Light: except in Judeo-Christian culture, it's derivatives or cultures it influenced.

WhiteCrow:
DH “I had read you earlier post, but to be honest the examples you gave, spoke more to me of situations were attitudes/emotions such as fear had been so utterly boxed that they were completely denied or externalized.”

Well, that had me dumbfounded. I went back to read what I'd written and I can't see anywhere where I had written anything where fear had been denied or externalised, which perhaps proves the whole point of perception being subjective. Am I missing something or are you?

“The one thing that I did consider could be possible was the experiment thing: but then it came to me that if I was in a room with whole heap of strangers doing an experiment of any kind, that situation would cause me a little stress, which would explain the drop in immune system response in the experiment.”

No, the people in the two rooms were lied to. There were two rooms (double blind test) and in both rooms the people were told they were there for a completely different reason. No need for stress in either room. Neither room of people was given any idea that they were being observed either. The people watching through the mirror glass and being instructed to send negative thoughts to room A and positive to room B also had no idea why they were being told to do so.

“So you don't believe evil is force unto itself separate from an individual’s mind?”

I'm not sure what you mean, so I can't honestly say yes or no. “If you believe in something, then there must be basis for that belief. Whether someone else accepts that basis is immaterial: it's the believer's basis I am interested in.. I know some very logical folks who believe in evil as a force in its own right, and have a totally illogical fear response to the notion of evil, believing they are being attacked by "evil" but who have no basis for that belief that they can elucidate. When I was a kid, my mum used to run around the house with holy water when it thundered and lightened: growing up in rural Ireland in the 1940's, all sorts of superstitions pervaded her conditioning creating all sorts of fears, that, as young boy she passed on to me. I was terrified of thunder and lightning well into my teenage years, until I learnt in science class that it wasn't God's anger.”

That must have been stressful, growing up with a mom like that. My dad's mom believed in fortune-tellers and based her life around her horoscopes and tea cup readings. As a result my dad was always very hostile towards fortune telling and horoscopes. He was one of the reasons I never did forecasting, which means I can understand how your mom's reaction to "evil things" might have rippled down create counter-reactions in you. Your story also explains why we differ in perceptions since my experiences aren't the same as yours. I never had anyone tell me thunder was something to fear. I can't remember being told anything related to religion and fear at home ever. What is the basis of my belief in a harmful amoral something? Observations and personal experiences.

“It depends on the strength of convictions of the parties. It would not work if the person who was to be the target of such intent had a strong enough belief that evil could not be sent out, and visa versa if the person sending the intent was stronger.”

I disagree. Recently Crabby was utterly freaked by the entity problem we had. Crabby is a firm believer in lower entities being incapable of causing harm or influence unless allowed to. So the fact this thing took over him, without warning or reason, threw him completely. He was not involved at all in my chakra readings, I never told him what I saw in those readings. I never felt any alarm about the reading. In fact I thought it went remarkably well and according to my guides it did, it was the person whose chakras I hadn't yet read who seems to have sent the entity. I was feeling relief and sadness, Crabby wasn't feeling anything. He was busy with work and knew nothing about what had been happening and I knew nothing until the next night when he confessed to me what had happened to him the night before. So I'd say in both of us the conviction and belief was that nothing was going to happen and yet it didn't help. It threw us both - being something neither of us had experienced in our lives before. Does the person who sent it have stronger intent? It's possible. Certainly we did not create it and it wasn't our beliefs that drew it to us. I believe it connected to Crabby because he was of more use and because he wasn't protected. I'd gone into the readings protected, I always do, but since Crabby wasn't even aware of what I was doing he was completely open and vulnerable... and the closest person to me which meant this thing could sow seeds of fear and distrust, only it didn't work. We didn't allow it to, so perhaps our intent was stronger after all? I don't know. I've never experienced anything like this thing before. I won't comment on Villodo, since Wynn has done so already.

Wynsong:
My questions were an attempt to answer yours Dragonhawk.

“But I wanted to ask those who do believe in Evil as a force separate from our own individual mind, that can be sent out to harm others, what purpose such a notion holds and how they square their belief in such an evil with the individuals ability to choose their own reality?”

I gather from this question and your other posts that you do not believe in evil as a separate entity from humans, and that you are trying to understand how someone later identified as Joe Public

“Yes, It was aimed at people who do believe, all semantics apart, that evil (in Joe Public's understanding of that term) is a force in itself, and separate from an individual’s mind.” My questions were leading to a judgment that energetic entities that vibrate at levels other than our own (that not everyone can perceive, but some can), that feed off humans, might be seen as evil (spirits), and that that might have perpetrated the idea. To accept that that might be true, you would need to accept that other vibrational energetic beings exist. You do believe they exist, but you see them as part of us, therefore not separate, ...but not everyone does see them as part of us...and to those that don't see them as part of us, could see them as separate...and they could also see them as evil and add one to one and come up with a separate evil principal at work in the universe... especially if they see them as taking advantage or harming people, not acting from a real need, but as a malicious force. I do see energies entities as separate from the energy that is me, despite my belief that in the end/beginning and in the totality of being, we are all part of the original creation, but I do not see the energies that are separate from me as evil or a separate principal of evil. Some may do me harm, but that does not necessarily equal evil.

WhiteCrow:
You said: “So you don't believe evil is force unto itself separate from an individual’s mind?” I said last night that I didn't understand that. I thought that was a bit like the chicken or the eggs thing, BUT... rereading this morning your reply to Wynn I realized that I'd misunderstood your question. Based on your ideas my answer is YES, I believe this thing is separate from us and I would call it what people sense and have named evil. I also realized, through reading Wynn's replies, that I've never feared evil half as much as I fear people who are imbalanced - either firmly obsessed with it all being good and Light or it all being bad and the devil. I fear both types equally, which brings me back to my first comment that "evil" is neither dark nor light, but a warping/twisting energy that feeds off the results. I'm not going to discuss my personal experiences further, because I'm not feeling that you're taking my experiences as being of equal value to your own and, regardless of whether that is my misconception, perception or fact, it is undermining my ability to remain objective. Plus I'm well aware that I tend to live up to the scientific meaning of my name so... it might be best if I accepted what I am and step aside to let you continue on your journey unimpeded.

DragonHawk:
Jimmy, thanks for your posts, you gave me a new perspective on this... Balance is the object of our quest in life and in order to find balance we must confront the darkness within. I have met "Evil" and whether or not it was a choice or a victim of upbringing, Evil is real, From the first sentence here, when you say you have met evil, you are speaking of something within ie evil as an expression of something you had created (perhaps in imagination?) as a tool to come to healing?

Evil can be a Mask of Fear, anger, hurt and so on. Some choose to deal with this differently, some are unable to choose the way they deal with it for whatever the reason, be it Spirit or environment. I don't doubt that evil exists: but as I grew in my ability to accept the lessons that life threw at me, I learnt, that as you say here:

“We can choose to do evil things or choose to do right.”

To me it feels like once we accept that we have that choice we agree to lessons in how to deal with whatever emotions/attributes lie beneath the "evil". I can see now that I decided not to allow me fear of scarcity to bring forward scarcity when I decided to go work in the UAE: I fought the "evil", but my conviction was tested at a much deeper level our in the UAE: perhaps because I knew in my heart of hearts I did not want to be there, and if we cannot bring heart to the battle our chances of success are severely hampered. Perhaps the battle was to be fought in the UK, not the UAE.

“Our choice is to either accept the evil for what it is or reject the evil and grasp the positive aspects that will lead us forward in personal growth”

Would you agree Jimmy that it is through acknowledging the evil, accepting that the evil, lies within, that we can see the positive aspects that lead to personal growth: the purpose of the

lessons that are sent that allow us to transmute that evil? In seeing the lessons for what they are, and the potential for evil within, we can strengthen the conviction of our choices for good?

“To do battle with the evil forces in the spirit world requires great courage and fortitude, integrity, Love in the purest of form. Something we call "Unconditional Love".”

Now I am little confused as to what you believe evil is: an internal or external force? But from you description here, and my experiences, I would say that evil comes forward when our sense of self love is weak, so that we have to dig really deep to find an expression of that Love: which I would guess we find through submission to the Divine: Self Love. This is a force that evil is un-capable of fighting because evil knows nothing of "unconditional love" If it did, it could no longer be evil. Which would be how the evil is transmuted: once we give ourselves "unconditional love" or are prepared to accept unconditional Love, we return to our normal state or perhaps, as a result of that willingness to give/receive that Love, we move up a stage on our Journey, given that unconditional Love is the gift of the Divine…. If one has never experienced Evil and Unconditional love, Evil will use every trick it knows to break it down, Evil can be defeated by unconditional love. : In which case, lack of Love allows evil to come forward?”

“Spirit guides and the animal spirits continually force evil back into its dark realm”

I've been with you up to here, but surely evil is better out and exposed to the Light? Unless you mean that our guides and helpers only bring forward that propensity to evil that we can each handle at any one time, according to our learning: back to the " we are never sent more than we can handle" theory?

“she did everything she could to split and divide goodness…”

You've just shown me the purpose of quite a few people who have been in my life the last few years: the roles people have played. But this also shows me how there is a propensity to evil in everyone: the extent to which it shows itself in the outer world would be dependent on their ability to see it and transmute it by Love when it arises within.

“This made Evil more impotent then even she realizes”

Do you mean the anger and rage or the lack of fear: or all three? My feeling would be the lack of fear, in which case fear would be the visible outward accomplice of an underlying lack of Unconditional Love: although as Crow has said previously, a little bit of fear is healthy for our physical survival and a little bit of anger can move us to action… Thanks for your posts, Jimmy

Whilst I was in the UAE, I became very aware of the Tarot and how the Major Arcana relates as they relate to the paths of the Tree of Life of the Qabalah. I've tried to get to grips with these paths before but have never quite "nailed" them. Through my experiences in the UAE, I learnt to see how the paths progress and have been tracking my Journey back through the Tree...

In doing so I came to see how the different paths combine to form a Journey. As I looked out into the world, I could see how different people in my life were walking their Journys: the paths

that were treading, almost as if they were offering visions of how the different paths could be walked and the outcomes of walking the paths differently. I have been using a Qabalah website http://www.hermeticgolden...ocuments/Essays/tarot.htm to gain understanding of the some of the astrological, numerological and other periphery aspects of the Tarot to augment my previous learning and found this under the Devil card:

Behind the image of the Devil (NChSh (in Hebrew) =358 (the numerological association of NChSh in Hebrew Gematria)) is Messiah (MShYCh = 358) who delivers.

Italics added by me for explanation, bold added to emphasize the original quotation. The Devil card is numbered 15 in the Tarot, , which is 6 numerologically (1+5), the number of the days of Creation in the Bible: implying that Creator is behind all, even the Devil: the force supposedly opposite to God and the source of evil in the Bible, who tempts the Christ. I also found this from the same text: The forces personified by the Devil are very real, for they are man's own creations and will disintegrate only when thought and belief are withdrawn from them which seems to tie in with my feeling, but also with Jimmy's comment that these forces are very real: but I still can't help feeling that. they would only be "very real" to the person who perceives them.

Paah Wenchokws:
It seems man has been pre-occupied with evil. I like what everyone has written. But it still comes down to that if there is such a thing as evil then it needs someone who is not aware-who is asleep. Evil needs an actor so-to-speak to give action and so does the devil. If you take the word evil and reverse the letters it is "live" which is a current state. If you take the word devil and reverse the letters it is "lived" which is past state. Either way these two words need an actor to become an action. Both need to have the thought to become. Another thought is that there are negative energies/spirits and that man has put a name or label on them. But to me, this does not mean they are evil. Just some random thoughts here.

DragonHawk:
Wynsong, Thanks for your replies! They have been very thought provoking! I will reply, and almost have responses down, but I have had to do a lot of thining! I need to edit as, I'm sure you know, I'm not known for having Brevity 101 as a talent, so they are too long to post right now! Crow, You said: “because I'm not feeling that you're taking my experiences as being of equal value to your own and, regardless of whether that is my misconception, perception or fact, it is undermining my ability to remain objective.”

You and I have a different viewpoint on this subject and in many respects I would prefer to share your viewpoint as it would take a lot of pressure off me to search within for sources of "disquiet" that come into my life LOL. In many respects that is the purpose of this thread: to try and test my own theories. We've talked before about how elemental differences can give us different perspectives. Being an air sign, I like to have a "logical" explanation. I find that logical expression in pretty much everything I come across in life, Either by experience or learning I have debunked a lot of things that seemed illogical to me as my path has progressed...so I cannot understand why I do not find it on this subject.. I had a physical teacher a few years ago, who firmly believed that everything bad that happened in her life was an expression of an "evil" sent by someone else: i.e. she had no responsibility in such matters, yet, even to my then (15 years ago) novice eyes, in some cases it was obvious that her earlier actions were the cause of this "evil" coming into her life. Other people were bad but she was always good. In the Qabalah/Tarot I recently found a logical explanation of "evil". At the same time there were threads on another board we both visit about evil being "sent" so I wanted to bring this to a wider audience to test my own theories. Jimmy's and Wynsong's posts have given me a lot to think about. I answered your posts first as I understood your underlying perspective better and perhaps I rushed them a little, but there was no intent to not value your experiences. I apologies if I did and I understand if you do not want to participate further in this thread. As a PS: on reflection I think you are probably right about the term "evil": I think that is a hangover from Augustine's misinterpretation of the Adam and Eve story: but that discussion seemed to take us into a different (or later part of the) discussion and I wanted to try and get a handle on the "everyday" understanding of the term "evil" and how it arose first. I'm not sure I would place it in quite the random terms you did at one point, as to me, if evil was not a product of man's mind, there would have to be some attractive force for it to attach to taht was at least similar to itself or a pre-curser to it arising. as otherwise the notion of cause and effect would be severed and I cannot help think that applies here somehow.

WhiteCrow:
DH Apology accepted. I have no problem with your differing views, I only ever have problems with people trying to push their view as "The Only View". Such actions always lead to trouble.

You and I have a different viewpoint on this subject and in many respects I would prefer to share your viewpoint as it would take a lot of pressure off me to search within for sources of "disquiet" that come into my life.

No, if you followed my viewpoint you'd still need to look within. The fact that I think there is more to the universe than "me/I" does not automatically mean I do not think I am important in my own life. As a firm believer in manifesting, and in faith moving mountains, I've always known the power over my life lies in my hands alone.

We've talked before about how elemental differences can give us different perspectives. Being an air sign, I like to have a "logical" explanation. I find that logical expression in pretty much everything I come across in life, Either by experience or learning I have debunked a lot of things that seemed illogical to me as my path has progressed…so I cannot understand why I do not find it on this subject..

My honest opinion? (and please bear in mind it is just an opinion, which could change tomorrow or in the next hour) I think you need logic not only to understand, but to feel safe. I think you are a clear-headed Air sign who feels that if you can understand and quantify something you can control it as well. Which leads me to thinking that lack of understanding, or lack of control over your life, fills you with more fear than the word EVIL ever will. Based on this assumption I think Spirit has finally brought you nose-to-nose with one of the Great Mysteries on purpose. You admit that and your usual bench tests and logical arguments aren't working here. That doesn't mean your notions on evil are wrong... or right. I don't think this quest is about evil, but about how you need to step forward on your journey into a new level of understanding that UNDERSTANDING isn't always literal. That you can know, or KNOW, or not know, and still be able to move forward. Because, in my experience, there are huge miracles in not knowing and yet still growing in understanding. Some call it faith, others trust... maybe even manifesting. The point is I feel you don't have to know how a car is designed and created in order to drive one whereas you want to take it apart and meet the original designer before you can accept that it is a vehicle of transport. I suspect this is because you have had very negative experiences in your life with people paranoid about the word "evil". So, being a Libran and a sign of balance, you automatically lean away to create balance. BUT this imbalance was theirs - not yours! You need to only focus on what balances you. Can "evil" be created purely as an illusion based on fear or inner turmoil? Most definitely yes, but that wasn't what you asked me and so I never had the chance to answer that. Do I think humans create their own monsters in the dark? Yes, but I also believe I can send out my monsters as well as my love. Logic tells me that if I can create GOOD I can create HARM as well. I don't consider this evil - I consider this natural cause and effect.

I'm not sure I would place it in quite the random terms you did at one point, as to me, if evil was not a product of man's mind, there would have to be some attractive force for it to attach to that was at least similar to itself or a pre-curser to it arising. as otherwise the notion of cause and effect would be severed and I cannot help think that applies here somehow. Mmm... I'm not sure if it goes against cause and effect or if it goes against the need for you to feel life is within your control. As Wynn put it (kind of) - if I manifest a better life for myself it may likely be at the expense of another, is this "good"... is this "evil"? I think all we each truly have is responsibility to keep as honest to ourselves as we can.

I'm learning to deal with my own need to defend myself and who I am, based on my past negative experiences with those who tried to make me lose faith in myself, one way or another. I'm slowly getting it through my fuzzy head that I don't need to be understood... any more than you need to understand? LOL

DragonHawk:
Crow, Thanks for your reply. I am rushing through again, but I did want to acknowledge your reply and say yes, you have hit on some truths, but perhaps not in the way you think you have. Feeling "safe" does come into this, but not in respect of why I need logical explanations, in fact it is the opposite: the "safety" came first, the logical explanations a consequence that actually created problems, but something I needed to do to retain balance. I realized once you mentioned safety that the "logical" is a balancing that has been going on whilst I explored worlds that were totally illogical to me. In those worlds I felt totally safe and if I did come across anything that alarmed me, I soon realized that this was I had never realized before that in the reading etc., I was trying to bring that sense of "safety" out into the (logical) world (as in the mundane) in a manner that, not only my own mind, but the minds of others, could understand so that I could test what I had understood by the inner world Journeys without giving the detail of those Journeys.

Where I experienced problems was in the opposition I encountered from people in the mundane who labelled me "all in my head", and dismissed anything I said. I accepted this as part of the Journey, but I realize now that I needed that logical expression, not only to bring them into mind, but to create a balance of East and West. Those who dismissed me hadn't seen the inner parts of my Journey, because I hadn’t shared those inner Journeys as I had been told not to: Your mentioning of the word "safety" brought that aspect of my path into focus: traditionally we are told not tell all to "protect" ourselves in those other worlds. I hadn't thought that the fact I hadn't shared the inner parts of those Journeys might be why I was labelled "all in my head", and why my opinion was so often discounted, as it was in the thread elsewhere about the entity that came to Crabby and yourself.

This is one of the reasons I came back to SL as I knew Cinn would understand and I would be able to discuss these matters with someone who had experienced them without having to explain the whole Journey. Where this post does fit into this thread, is that I rarely came across anything that alarmed me, and if I did I simply came back to the Now and replayed the action and usually found them to be an effect of an earlier action (cause) that explained the occurrences. Sometimes the action was a person I knew in the mundane and sometimes an archetype that referred back to a person or an experience. I have come across more such problems with situations in the mundane which is why I have come to believe that "evil" in the Joe Public sense of the word is a creation of mind. To explain more of my Journey here would go too far off topic, but somehow, and I am not quite sure how yet how, but the two worlds seemed to transpose themselves out in the UAE: things that I had taken for granted as being "safe" became a major problem and things I had struggled with and was "scared" of, became easy. One thing the UAE Journey did bring forward was a very clear understanding of how seemingly opposing forces balance themselves and how, at a deeper level, those forces are not in opposition, but assisting the Whole.Because, in my experience, there are huge miracles in not knowing and yet still growing in understanding. Some call it faith, others trust... maybe even manifesting. The point is I feel you don't have to know how a car is designed and created in order to drive one whereas you want to take it apart and meet the original designer before you can accept that it is a vehicle of transport.

I understand what you mean: but to me it feels more like I have met the designer, helped him design it "somewhere else" but I then have to explain it to someone here who wasn't there, to be able to remember the process so that I can build the car and drive it. To me it is not a deconstructing process but a reconstructing process. Given that were are being honest with each other: I have to say that you have been one of the people who I have felt have been dismissive of my Journey over the last twelve months, certainly of my online friends.

I only ever have problems with people trying to push their view as "The Only View".

I looked back over this thread, and yes, in one of my replies to you I didn't use words like "I feel" or similar words that I normally use that give rise to the notion that this was an opinion, not something I was putting forward as something I believed was fact and I have given the reason and apologized for that. But there have been situations where you have come across as if you believed yours was the only view, sometimes in a very domineering fashion. There are instances in this thread, in the post that starts with your quoting a point I made about denial, were you have discarded what I said to you and gone on to reply regardless of my reply to you. In the first quote, it was me who mentioned denial, not you, and in the second quote in that post, you replied with a point about the experiment in question, when I gave a general point about an experiment situations. In one post, I asked a specific question to understand a particular point of view, and you replied questioning my question, admitting that your opinion did not fit the question, but giving your viewpoint anyway. It's an open board and anyone has a right to reply however they see fit: but to state that your only have a problem with people trying to push their view as the only view after having dismissed my replies to you and to comment that a question I asked was wrong, could imply that you believe yours is "the only view" that matters. It's not your normal way of doing things, but I think we can all act in a manner we wouldn't normally at times. I have found that things I dislike in others are a sign I need to look at that aspect within myself.

Do I think humans create their own monsters in the dark? Yes, but I also believe I can send out my monsters as well as my love. Logic tells me that if I can create GOOD I can create HARM as well. I don't consider this evil - I consider this natural cause and effect.

I don't disagree that our monsters can be sent out: it's how they attach at the other end that I am seeking to understand other's opinion on.

Wynsong:

It's how they attach at the other end that I am seeking to understand other's opinion on. It is my opinion, that for something to be able to attach at the other end, there must be an affinity for it. So in the Arthur legend...he was not hurt by much in the way of dark magic (although I'm sure some was sent his way, even though the stories don't talk about it much-Merlin's teachings of the

shamanic journey did their job), but he was defeated by his own son, by his own unknowing errors, by his own shadow. This works for the small sorcery that happens every day... I'll use me as an example, because that is easiest... If someone says to me, you have the fattest butt they've ever seen... there will be no damage, because it simply isn't my truth in either my conscious or my unconscious mind, so they will not undermine my energy in that way.... I'm not lazy, despite my very disastrous housekeeping...so that won't work either... But tell me I'm unlovable...or hit on the places I am not sure about around my parenting, and I'm all over that stuff...Might just as well put up a big bullseye. It wouldn't take a talented sorcerer to find those affinities. Given that I've done a lot of work on my affinities, conscious and unconscious/shadow and I've healed a lot of the standard affinities that the 'man on the street' has....then it would take a more talented sorcerer to find my affinities and exploit them. This is actually what I teach at my energy self- defense courses...Ways to strengthen your shields etc are only as good as how well you have lived your own shadow and made peace with it. And of course I could be so very wrong...but it is how I'm walking this journey.

WhiteCrow:
“I asked a specific question to understand a particular point of view, and you replied questioning my question, admitting that your opinion did not fit the question, but giving your viewpoint anyway.” True, I did step forward unasked. I apologize if it made you think I was trying to force my opinion as the only way back at you.

EagleSinging:
I am late coming to this conversation, but I've been following it. I actually hold a similar opinion that Wynsong expressed. For any evil or mal intent to impact another, it must be received by the other person (receiver). There must be a place or manner in which is can attach to the receiver. If it cannot attach, if it cannot be received consciously or unconsciously, then there is no impact on the receiver. That is my opinion - it is based on my personal experience and what I've learned through reading and exploring. I am not sure if I answered your question DH, but that is how I understood it. This question is an interesting exploration.

DragonHawk:
Crow, It wasn't a problem for me, but you did ask on another board for it to be pointed out to you if you ever did that.

Wynsong, Your last post very much agrees with my feeling on this (as have much in the other posts I have yet to reply to!): there would have to be a weakness for the energy to take hold

I was thinking about this this evening actually and as you say here: “Given that I've done a lot of work on my affinities, conscious and unconscious/shadow and I've healed a lot of the standard affinities that the 'man on the street' has....then it would take a more talented sorcerer to find my affinities and exploit them. “

..I doubt I'm as far along the affinities Journey as you are but I've noticed that the further I go along my path the more confident I feel in my ability to walk that path without fear of "evil". Raven took my down some very foreboding paths when he first started working with me: once I began to trust him, my fear of the paths subsided and I never once felt anything untoward even on some of the more difficult paths. Dragon does not feel half as threatening I might add! What Jimmy said about unconditional Love feels right, and particularly for me, the unconditional Love we give to ourselves. I think cultivating Joy helps too (but that is only a very recent observation as I've assimilated my UAE Journey!). Maybe the more we own our own Power, i.e. the more self-aware we are, the more difficult it becomes for other's attempts to harm us to hit the mark and affect us? This might explain the point Crow made about differing realities and whether we believe in evil or not: someone who has done the internal work will still perceive the "evil" but will not be threatened by it/be able to deflect it, which, to me would be different than someone who does not believe in evil as their weaknesses would be wide open. This would also explain why I used to believe folks could harm me and I feel that less now.

Once, again, Thanks! for your post Wynsong.

ES, Thanks for your post! As you say, I think that is pretty much what Wynsong said, but your terminology sparked my interest as it is terminology I use! I have realized from Crow's post about safety, as I said in regard to Raven, that in the "inner" unconscious worlds I feel little fear: it was the conscious outer worlds that I felt fear. Crow made me realize, which I had never considered before (but then I realized that I always have to explain things to someone else for the lightbulb to come on ) that I was building my conscious world to replicate my unconscious inner worlds i.e. the inner worlds became stronger first, and the outer world followed To me this seems to confirm that, essentially, "evil" is of the conscious mind, as I originally suspected.

Wynsong:
Dragonhawk, I'm glad that you are happy with the discussion. I only want to clear up one misconception I left you with... The "Given", was an hypothetical...not a statement of my acumen or clarity. "Given that I had done my work, then..." I've lots left to do, and my affinities are not that hard to find for those who are not necessarily that talented, but have just known me for a while, are strong willed, and that I care about. I'm working on Joy and Limitless Love, so I'm working in the same direction that Jimmy WhiteBear introduced in his second post. Be kind to me when you post your responses to me. Chemo brain is making it hard for me to process long posts. I may need to do your answers in pieces.

CinnamonMoon:
Hi DragonHawk, I've been following this thread with interest, and putting my own thoughts and feelings together so please don't feel I'm telling you how to think. Just consider that it's more than a fear within you as you read on, my friend. For what it's worth I think we each have to find our own definitions and interpretations for 'evil' just as we seek our own traditions to follow. Energy itself is a force in the universe and that I see as neutral until we tap into it (or an entity from another dimension does) and put intent behind it. That intent can be malicious or benevolent and evil there (according to the generic description of the word) would be up to the individual and come from within them as understanding and/or intent to utilize that force in that way. However there are forces of destruction over which we have no control, and dimensional entities that are predatory over which we have no control, they do not come from within us, they are external. Our control resides within us with our intent and will to resist or refuse such forces within our reality.

Entities themselves can be dark and malicious, parasitic in nature, controlling, or possessive but I believe to encounter them we haven't elevated our own spirits and conscious awareness to a level where our energy is 'higher' on a plane which they don't exist. The darker the entity the lower their vibratory rate, the brighter the entity the higher that rate. (And we are entities too.) However I think there is a difference between a destructive (sometimes seemingly malicious) force and evil deeds of choice. I think fear rises from such encounters but do not feel it causes them necessarily.

In the case of someone tapping into energy with the intent of doing evil to another, the attachment to the victim could be created through fear…some would lay a curse on another, or threaten to send harm, or speak words implying negative forces would be called into play through spell-casting to bring harm to the individual they wished to feel fearful. They are thereby opening the individual to the potential acceptance that it would come and they would be attacked. That's a force coming from within the sender, not the receiver who would need to refute it or contend with it whichever the case might be. There would be an attempt to convince the individual that they were powerless against it increasing the fear. And whether that person were aware or not such a force or spell could be cast. Either way the effect could be harrowing—especially if the individual being attacked or set upon had no knowledge of dis-spelling. Wicked ways have always been among us from a single act to mass atrocities. Can an evil force incarnate? Yes, I believe that is possible when attaching to an individual or entity and set into motion by negative intent…or by chance encounters too. As a force, this 'evil' is hungry for the life force it cannot produce for itself and feeds off others much like a vampire would sustain itself; that's why I call it parasitic.

The concept of an 'evil force' is something that has long been debated, but I do believe in the collective consciousness it exists as a negative force that can be tapped. I believe it exists as a force within the universe itself. The fact that there is a benevolent force in the universe would indicate that a balancing force of destruction (not necessarily malevolence though that could be involved) would be present too. I think we can attract such negative influences if we are unstable emotionally, mentally, or spiritually. Light and dark are two sides of the same coin going to extremes between them…two sides of Creator if you will. And that may explain the avenging vs.

benevolent sides of what the Bible depicts God to be like as defined in the Old Testament vs. the New Testament.

I believe it is our 'choice' as to which energies we summon into play in our lives, and evil is definitely a constructed term to address the darker side of things. Evil, for me, is better attached to Free Will than it is a force. Destructive fits better to my way of thinking and holds purpose for the 'undoing' that gives way to the void in which evolution can then form a new 'doing' whatever that might be. I feel 'evil' has become a convenient term to describe its effects as we as individuals perceive them. Is this force within us, yes in a way, we have good and bad in all of us and we have the 'choice' as to which we will project in life. Sometimes we do a little of both, sometimes it's more one than the other. But it exists outside us too. We find that individuals that are sociopaths, who have no conscience, no concept of consequence (even knowing the definition of the word), will continue to do wicked things to others and summon the negative energies into play (consciously or not). Are they refusing to look within? I don't know that I'd call it refusal, they wouldn't see the need; it simply wouldn't make sense to them to do so. Some individuals are devoid of conscience and emotion, guilt or shame.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the concept that the entities are merely thought-forms. Thought-forms of such a nature do exist, and as well there are also living entities in spirit worlds that are dark in nature going beyond a mere thought-form, my friend. Unless you've encountered one it might be hard to conceive of that but once you have you won't forget it. It appears to me that you are confusing evil as a force and evil entities with intended projections of thought or thought-forms based on fear. I feel these are very separate issues.

You stated: "If we perceive negative energy in our lives, surely this is a sign that we need to take note of that energy and investigate why it is effecting us? If we perceive that another is sending us this negative energy and do not seek to look Within, surely we are missing an opportunity to heal an aspect of our self/Self that needs to come to healing and we are doing our Self a disservice?" I'd have to say yes, if you're just talking about thought-forms or fetches, fear and illusions leading to behavioral matters. However what about the forces at play we're not summoning and attacks on individuals who have no knowledge of what evil means in regard to an energy or entity? It seems lacking there and the confusion begins to set in as to what's what between the acts of individuals and groups or a force in and of itself. Which is which? As Wynsong implied, it could be sorcery done to someone if coming from someone's will, and that act could impact whether the person believes in it or not. Thoughts (focus and will) are things.

Jimmy stated: "Evil possession changes our personality and forces us to act in a way we normally would not. To do battle with the evil forces in the spirit world requires great courage and fortitude, integrity, Love in the purest of form. Something we call "Unconditional Love". This is a force that evil is un-capable of fighting because evil knows nothing of "unconditional love" If it did, it could no longer be evil. If one has never experienced Evil and Unconditional love, Evil will use every trick it knows to break it down, Evil can be defeated by unconditional love." And I have to agree with him because of experiences I've had over the years with just such confrontations. These are entities trying to take over control of the host or body and mind of a living spirit. I believe the more we raise our conscious awareness (and therefore our spiritual energy vibration along with it) the less apt we are to encounter these entities because they are on a lower vibratory scale, a more primal nature, and therefore cannot exist at the higher vibratory rates. The more we choose to walk a path of higher awareness the less apt we are to associate with those who maintain more primal natures and come from ego…to be on that higher road we've had to raise our awareness that it's there for us to journey along, and we've made some discernments as to the company we are willing to keep.

Crow mentioned: "I wrote that light and/or dark aren't evil. That they are merely Yin/Yang - the balancing. I wrote that I did believe in evil and I saw it as the "twisting" force - the carnival mirror that warps and distorts for its own purposes, using light, dark, "good"... whatever it could to get its own way." I must agree as she is talking about a force (energy or entity), not human actions or energy weaving. I agree that 'evil' could be better replaced with 'destructive' which we can all see is a force at play in the natural order. Evil is a human concept, energy is neutral, forces contain energy and are set in motion by intent…ours or Spirit's or another source of that intent. I also agree with much of Crow's statement that "The word "evil" might be man-made,” but the force that caught man's attention has always been there and no, I don't think it is Chaos - I don't think it helps us grow. Chaos does help us grow and can use this energy we call evil to our growth advantage, but the thing we call "evil" isn't interested in our growth or even in us. It just is and sometimes it comes into contact with us and sees opportunities. I don't think evil is a good word for it at all, but I can't think of any that fits what I'm trying to say. Yes, it uses human fear, but no, we don't create it. We create our own fear and sometimes this energy will latch onto that and use it, but it doesn't come from us. My experiences of coming into contact with it is that it felt beyond us - very impersonal, totally lacking emotion. And yes, there are entities that exist in this state of being as well as entities that have been sucked in to help feed it. I suspect what we once called "demons" could be more victims trapped and used by this hungry force." I see that force as she's describing it as a predator, and it can be summoned by one who is inclined to do so. The trouble with that summoning is that the force will also devour them at some point - which is what happened to Crowley.

I recall all too vividly the first time I had to face such an entity and fight to defeat it, I know it did not come from within, it came 'at me' in an attack and it was attacking my will, no figment of the imagination. I saw it take form and materialize and I felt it's energy come in contact with mine as well as the force it was drawing from. I was terrified. My spirit had to rise to defeat it and I was paralyzed with fear of the unknown…I had no clue at the time what it was or why I was being attacked. I became a Witness to that battle at a young age and others like it over the years. I'm not alone in that, I know several individuals who have fought in similar circumstances. In fear I tried to scream and was mute. I could not utter a sound for the entire time it was there, my physical body frozen in that fear, but my spirit arose and it fought hard. This entity/spirit that came was able to move my body by pushing on it though. That scared me too. How could something in spirit form move me physically? It happened. I knew where my courage and strength came from then, it was a lesson well-learned. It was an entity from an external source, and the battle brought about fear, gave rise to it, but my spirit pushed through my physical and conscious limitations and knew what to do. That battle raged for over an hour in which I was consciously aware of everything that took place and had to stand out of the way of my spirit to win through it…it was a battle of Wills and I was sure I was going to die. Unless you've been in

such a situation you're not going to understand it but I can tell you I was not living in fear of anything else at the time…consciously or unconsciously. It wasn't coming from within me. I was unschooled in such encounters though and learned to handle myself through the assistance of my spirit and the experience itself. To this day I do not know what brought it on other than the sense that it wanted my life force to feed on.

In addressing an amoral destructive energy that exists in the universe, Crow stated: "Where it comes from...? I'm not sure, I do know what it craves. It craves energy. It "eats" energy. It seems to have no ability to create its own energy and so it takes. It's parasitic and not necessarily harmful except when it latches onto the wrong type of person or situation. And because it eats energy it tends to be attracted to the stronger human energy emotions - hate, rage, terror. It creates those situations to create the energy it feeds off, but it doesn't actually wish us harm. It's more psychopathic than evil - it just doesn't care. If I had to name it I'd call it HUNGER. A huge empty never-filled hunger for energy. A spiritual black hole." And again I agree with her. Such a force or entity will feed off of the energy of the living, be that a human or a location and it is beyond our creations from within ourselves. Again, it's external and an apt description of the entity I was just speaking of. I would add that it will not only attach to those who carry hate, rage, or terror, it will also feed off the unsuspecting and vulnerable who are unaware such predators exist.

DH, you stated: "In which case, any "dark entity" that fear creates would not affect us: would we even perceive it? If we did would it have any hold over us? I cannot conceive that it would."

Ah, but what about those who are possessed by a destructive spirit that must be cast out? The exorcisms of the Church recognize this as far more than a fear within someone, and the phenomena that accompany such possessions is beyond human capability in the general sense. Atrocious torture to the individual's mind, body and spirit are experienced, as well as destructive forces unleashed against others in close proximity. Life-threatening and life-taking situations arise. This is not a fear based experience, though it creates fear.

Further, you stated: "If we perceive negative energy in our lives, surely this is a sign that we need to take note of that energy and investigate why it is effecting us? If we perceive that another is sending us this negative energy and do not seek to look Within, surely we are missing an opportunity to heal an aspect of our self/Self that needs to come to healing and we are doing our Self a disservice? "

I'd have to say that the first thing I would look at in that instance is the intent of the sender and why they would do such a thing? Part of that would be in exploring within myself to see if I'd done something to trigger such a negative act. However some people are simply jealous or envious or malicious in nature and enjoy doing that sort of thing. They feed off the power they run through themselves, off the control of others…again a sociopathic nature bent on destroying or holding others captive to them so they feel better about themselves. It's ego-based and often lacks conscience, IMHO. That's not necessarily going to have anything whatsoever to do with me personally other than being a target. And it's not necessarily going to have anything to do with an independent destructive force in the universe other than the individual sending it has summoned that sort of energy to themselves to complete their mission.

You also stated: "But I wanted to ask those who do believe in Evil as a force separate from our own individual mind, that can be sent out to harm others, what purpose such a notion holds and how they square their belief in such an evil with the individual’s ability to choose their own reality?" Here I would say that we do have a choice…in choosing our own reality we can opt to send it away, deny it presence, or banish it. However doing so may take some work. It is a force to reckon with and it is powerful. Jimmy's comment that unconditional love overcomes it is true, but it can also call for physical and spiritual strength as well as mental focus that is unwavering with intent. And as for individual realities, yes, they exist, but within the whole and therefore they are affected by others too…they co-exist. There are many planets and stars in the universe that co-exist, they create the universe giving it form; yet each is a reality unto itself but they can collide if out of orbit. Human Free Will can collide too. And I do not believe that all evil intent done to another is based solely in our own fear sectors. Fear, on a personal level may feel evil in its presence, but that doesn't mean it truly is. Nor does it mean it is the source of evil.

To Wynsong you stated: "Yes, but at this point in time I believe that such entities are part of us: and that they reside "within"." And to that I must disagree. Do I exist within you? Do you exist within me? No. We are existing separately from one and other but still within the body of the whole of creation…just as those entities exist, as separate realities exist, as different dimensions exist…parts of the whole but not whole within oneself.” If I may, each is a different and yet vital component of the whole whether we have understanding of that component or not. The elemental forces of nature exist unto and within…so while these things can exist within us they can also be external. When two forces collide one intends to penetrate the other or both intend it…or not…but the collisions occur. Sometimes they create something beautiful and sometimes they are very destructive.

I do not believe that denying fear externalizes the destructive forces around us, or within us. In some cases the denial could become a projection from within us but, externally, if you have not come face to face with such a force or entity, there's only theory to base beliefs on and I believe we need experience to accompany that for a more rounded understanding. This force, while it can become tangible, is for the most part intangible…until it finds a host through which it can manifest and thereby take possession whether that host is aware or not is another matter. These things can happen to non-believers as well as believers, they are indiscriminate. If we entertain ill-will or dark thoughts that's a tasty morsel for the destructive forces or entities that dwell with them, a beacon they will follow allowing them to attach to us through thoughts and emotions that are negative in some capacity. The negative attracts them…like attracts like…and the individual might not necessarily realize this initially feeling quite comfortable with that energy signature so similar to their own at the moment. In that case it would be masked by the force or entity as the same until it takes hold…and potentially takes over. It can also follow a vibrant positive energy…another tasty morsel…the light that allows the life-force within us to be seen would be stalked. If we can't defend we'd better learn how fast, and as in the instance I related, it was on the job training.

As a force I believe it is outside us…separate from us. As intent it is within us and a choice to act or not by tapping into it.

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