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Boundaries
By Lotus
This afternoon I joined a few friends
and one of the gals brought along a young man who was visiting
her. They were discussing using laboratory grown human bone
tissue for material design when I arrived. Apparently this is
being done and quite frankly I was taken aback ... to use human
tissue for some kind of design on another creature just didn't
sit well with me. As I sat listening, the young man said , "Anything
which annihilates a taboo is to be commended. It reminds us
that there are no limits beyond those we make for ourselves,
that all morality is, ultimately, illusion." I asked him,
if he was suggesting that absolutely no boundaries whatsoever
should exist and he said yes. And so a discussion arose as to
what responsibilities humans have. As I sat listening, thoughts
swirled around my head and I couldn't help but ask ... could
we still serve Spirit if we did not learn the value and purpose
of respecting ourselves and others? Do boundaries encourage
peaceful co-existence or should we encourage passing boundaries
and transgressing limits if we tread with balance, moderation
as well as reverence for all living things. (My reference to
reverence indicates deep respect NOT worship.) He replied, "And
what's wrong with a little irresponsibility? Without visionaries
and risk-takers humanity would stagnate, strangled by conservatism
and fear. The old trope 'rules were made to be broken' has always
held true; boundaries exist to be surpassed, limits are established
to be transgressed." Soon the conversation ended and we
departed yet his words have me wondering, do we have a responsibility
to abstain from this sort of experiment or is this the direction
we should be considering?
2CrowWoman:
Hi Lotus,
Good question. I've wondered about that a lot myself, particularly
as mankind has such a great track record of taking a good idea
and abusing it for power or money. Yet do we have the right
to stop new ideas because we fear they may be abused? To me
the answer seems to end up becoming personal - that each person
has to decide for themselves where their "boundaries"
are. Not a great answer, but all I can give at the moment.
Lotus:
Crow, I think your answer
is a great one as what you have shared is what the majority
of folks in the group also felt. Seems to be the more we know
the more there is to know. Where's that handsome hubby of yours
... Crabby, what do you think?
Earthwalker:
Lotus,
You have asked a very difficult question and I don’t believe
there is an absolute answer. I believe taboos are manmade rules
that are created around a boundary with an as yet unknown or
undefined result. The taboo is created to control not necessarily
that which it is controlling but in reality to control the intent
of that which is being initiated and the resultant of the intent.
Therein suggesting the need for debate and consensus. I believe
your example is about growing human tissue and its subsequent
use for experimentation to define a developmental process. Yet,
once the process is defined and known it has the potential to
help others and relieve suffering; it also has the ability to
be used to harm. I also ask if secondary questions don't need
to be addressed in this venue. Is fear of the intent that which
creates taboos? But don’t we in reality create bad intent
at times by expectation of its occurrence? I think one can find
answers to these questions and for me it is found in the intent
up front. In your example, I believe a boundary is cross when
we are creating life to be used for another purpose; since there
is no respect for the life being created. To me that is a boundary
I have a hard time crossing. However, if life has been created
and for whatever reason is lost, I believe the intent upfront
was correct or at least not intentionally to do harm and that
the resulting tissue should be used to help others. I therein
do believe in organ donations, stem cell research, autopsies
etc. since I believe any soul that may have been attached to
the tissue or body would want to give life to others. I believe
the intent of our soul is one of love and compassion. However
I personally would not agree with a woman deciding to get pregnant
with the intent to have an abortion so that the cells could
be used for her father who has Alzheimer. It’s a fine line
but to me the upfront part is the respect for that which is
being chosen to be created. We can look at this discussion by
bringing it closer to home. Look at the discussion we are having
in regards to mysticism, shamanism etc. They are taboos; something
never to be entered into; something people were burned for and
killed because of. Why? I suspect fear of the unknown and fear
of the resulting intent. Are taboos bad? I think they are barriers
put into place by fear; fear of the unknown and of intent of
the purpose in control of the knowledge. Instead of teaching
respect, right intent, and honoring community, we as civilized
societies have chosen to control and legislate the result. My
personal feelings are we need to look for better examples to
for guidance in these areas of respect and rightful living.
So my answer is that if we walk in love with a respect for life
and a respect for truth and knowledge taboos are not needed.
Yet given a world that is primarily self-serving and capitalistic
in intent I do believe there needs to be boundaries / taboos
so discussion and debate can occur. Will the discussion and
debate stop the progress? No, but it will slow it down to a
point where hopefully the ethics of the society can catch up
to the knowledge. IN a direct answer to your question I believe
there are multiple ways of legally obtaining bone tissue that
would not require the creation of life for no other purpose
than death; therein I think the boundary/ lack of respect has
been crossed for easy and control of experimentation. I think
given the minimal facts presented that I would oppose it. Those
are my personal boundaries based on the knowledge, understanding
and feelings I have today.
EaglesHand:
Lotus- Very
important and complex issues you raise here! I can understand
your discomfort with what the young man was saying -especially
this:
"Anything which
annihilates a taboo is to be commended. It reminds us that there
are no limits beyond those we make for ourselves, that all morality
is, ultimately, illusion."
In my opinion this
statement smacks of anarchy. While not all laws are related
to taboos, nearly all the major, cross-cultural taboos (aside
from some cultural/religious taboos regarding interpersonal
relationships, dress codes, foods that are appropriate to eat,
etc.) are also part of the legal code of most countries. The
laws exist precisely because not everyone has the same internal
sense of right and wrong-- some folks need an external authority
to tell them what is right/wrong and hold them accountable for
their actions. I wonder if this young man had truely thought
out this statement... would he also do away with taboos against
incest? Against murder? Against cannibalism? Personally I do
not regard morality as illusion! For me morality- or even more
appropriately, ethics (the word morality seems to have a negative
connotation these days and it seems that many people associate
"morality" with religious beliefs) comes from with
in - based on what I was taught about right and wrong when I
was a child and what I have observed and learned since then.
I may be considered old fashioned or conservative in my personal
moral code ... but essentially it boils down to "First
do no harm" and "Do unto others what you would have
them do unto you" (very overly simplified here). From what
you related, this young man appears to not want any kind of
oversight or regulation on experimentation! And that really
makes me nervous. As Earthwalker pointed out nearly all discoveries
have the potential for good .... and for harm. Medical ethics
(to cite one area) is constantly debating and evaluating and
scrutinizing new procedures and new discoveries to try to acertain
where the boundaries are between good and harmful uses. And
they struggle with the fact that there are few, if any easy,
clear-cut answers. Every major hospital, clinic, and research
facility has a medical ethics committee to help the doctors
and patients make these major decisions- if morality were just
an illusion, then would there be any ethical dilemmas? I recently
read a book, a novel, about a young girl who was a "genetically
designed" child conceived by her parents to be an exact
genetic match to her older, very ill sister (sister had a rare
form of leukemia). The book described in very vivid terms just
how this medical miracle... this deliberate design.. was harmful!
Harmful to the wonderful young girl who was put through painful
medical procedures (often with very little explanation to the
girl... just "you have to do this to save your sister")
just to keep her sister alive. And the great harm it did to
the family when the girl decided she had had enough. The book,
My Sister's Keeper by Jodi Picoult My Sister's Keeper struggles
to cover all of the aspects of this incredibly complex situation
and the very real emotions that come up for every character
in the book. While growing human bone tissue in a laboratory
might not seem like such a bad thing, where does it end? Already
scientists are cloning animals and there has been speculation
in the media that there have been cloned humans created as well.
IMO, human kind does not yet know enough to play God in this
way! For one thing, as yet we do not know exactly when- or how-
a soul enters into a human fetus... Earthwalker, thank you for
your very thoughtful and well considered input! It is always
informative and enlightening to read your thoughts on issues
such as this!
LadyLittlebit:
A
very deep topic and here is my very simple answer. I think we
all have our own boundaries. There are fundamental basics that
the general public have set up, and those that we all have taken
on based on spirituality and religious background. I have to
agree with you Lotus that this use of tissue I find distastful
and this man's attitude is certainly not my own. So to answer
the question simply, I think boundaries are a personal preference.
Then hopes she made sense,
Mouse:
“…suggesting
that absolutely no boundaries whatsoever should exist and he
said yes”
We've been
talking about boundaries as parents in relation to our children.
We do have boundaries. We have freedom until the point where
we jeopardize our own and others' safety, and we do not hurt
anyone or anything. These can be argued to be rules, but to
us they are boundaries. Safety, well-being and respect will
not be overridden in preference of freedom.
On top of
that, we have found that our children become very restless if
the boundaries are hard to find. They will kick and scream and
yell until they know again where the boundaries are, and that
they are firm. When they grow out of the existing boundaries,
when they keep bumping up against them, we renegotiate those
boundaries. But until that point, the kids generally feel a
whole lot more secure within boundaries. I'd say, personally,
that boundaries are what enable us to grow. I also feel that
there are more and more people who come to Earth to challenge
the existing structures. I wonder if that is what the young
man was implying - that structures, institutions, taboos, dogmas,
etc... should be removed, challenged, banished? As for the topic
of conversation, it gives me the willies. I guess that it does
not fit into my personal boundaries around safety, well-being
and respect.
Unregistered Guest:
This topic is making my very
fur crawl. It sounds as though this young man was trying to
impose his beliefs upon you which is definitely NOT cool. We
all have our own self-imposed boundaries and we teach them to
our children. We share our beliefs and try to learn from one
another. I understand that cloning is important in science and
is an advancement in the science of medicine which is well and
good. But to use that to specifically create a human life so
that another may be saved doesn't seem right. I know all too
well the pain of losing a beloved pet and I'd give my eyeteeth
to have them back, but to spend an obscene amount of money to
clone that pet while there are so many homeless animals out
there just disgusts me. While cloning can be very beneficial
in the preservation of wild and endangered species, we must
remember that we are toying with Spirit and that is not an undertaking
to be taken lightly.
Dragon:
Not to be a copycat
or copy dragon .....but I will have to echo what Cedar/Mouse
says. She put it quite well.... “I'd say, personally, that
boundaries are what enable us to grow.” Boundaries can
be milestones for us, when we get to them, that’s when
we decide if they should stay in place or be expanded to allow
room for more growth in a certain area. I feel as we grow the
boundaries usually do too. Especially with kids. They have more
boundaries when they are younger and then those boundaries grow
or even disappear so that our kids can keep growing. But there
are those boundaries that will stay put too. I look at science
the same, there are always boundaries put in place, then they
are expanded as our knowledge expands, but I feel there are
certain boundaries that should always stay the same and not
be crossed. And some subjects are just "ewww" and
shouldn't even be considered. Ok, I said boundaries a lot and
I am not sure if I made any sense, I hope so LOL. Of course
there are a lot of self-imposed boundaries too. I just think
we have to reach them and then re-evaluate to see if they are
keepers. My 5 1/2 cents worth
Lotus:
I guess technology, like
politics, is the art of the possible. I understand that advances
in science are a necessary for advancements in technology but
I too believe there is a very delicate balance. I also realize
the need for bone substitutes are often required to help repair
or replace damaged or diseased tissues in cases ranging from
trauma, to congenital and degenerative diseases, to cancer and
even cosmetic. Earthwalker, you write: “So my answer is
that if we walk in love with a respect for life and a respect
for truth and knowledge taboos are not needed.” A wonderful
post ... You raise excellent points and to use a familiar phrase,
I do see both sides of the coin. I agree with you but the key
word is "if" and that is what concerns me. I wonder
if the intense attention given to this subject in its potential
uses, for reproduction as well as for research, strongly suggests
that people do not regard it as just another new technology.
Instead, we see it as something quite different, something that
touches fundamental aspects of our humanity. It appears to raise
issues about identity and individuality, the meaning of having
children, the difference between procreation and manufacture,
and the relationship between the generations. It also raises
new questions about the manipulation of some human beings for
the benefit of others, the freedom and value of biomedical inquiry,
our obligation to heal the sick (and its limits), and the respect
and protection owed to nascent human life. So much to contemplate
and reflect on. EaglesHand, beautiful wording, you write: “While
growing human bone tissue in a laboratory might not seem like
such a bad thing, where does it end?”
Exactly ... here is a site that talks
about "bio-jewelry" ... www.joshrubin.com/coolhunting/archives/design/index.php
This sort of thing concerns and frightens me and I wonder could
this be a trend of future generations? On the one hand, research
could lead to important knowledge about human embryological
development and gene action, both normal and abnormal, ultimately
resulting in treatments and cures for many dreaded illnesses
and disabilities. On the other hand, is the research morally
controversial because it involves the deliberate production,
use, and ultimate destruction of cloned human embryos, and because
the cloned embryos produced for research are no different from
those that could be implanted in attempts to produce cloned
children? Are these unanswerable questions ... will research
yield the results hoped for or are there other promising and
morally non-problematic approaches that might yield comparable
benefits?
Thank you my Lady Lilbit, for sharing
your thoughts ... it truly is a very deep topic and one that
seems to attract a lot of attention.
Cedar/Mouse and WWW, it certainly
is a tough subject to discuss with so many underlying personal
thoughts and feelings. This type of research can be frightening
and tampering in areas of creation
leaves us wondering is this where we should be treading ...?
Dragon, of course you made sense
“And some subjects are just "ewww" and shouldn't
even be considered.” Yes, tis true, some subjects are just
"ewww"!
Earthwalker:
EaglesHand,
Your words about the child with leukemia bring back so many
memories and feelings; a time of very difficult decisions which
had to be made (20 years ago). I thought I would share options
pertinent to this discussion and the choices I made. When my
son relapsed from ALL (acute lymphocytic leukemia) discussions
involved further treatment. The only option that had any real
statistical significance of long term survival (about 15%) was
a bone marrow transplantation. There were two options, a matched
transplant and a mismatched transplant (if my son survived long
enough to have it since it need to be performed in a laminar
flow room and the waiting list was several months long). The
source of the bone marrow cells could come from a matched sibling
(1 out of 4 odds) or a more distant family member, a national
cell bank which was just beginning, or I could increase the
odds of a match if I was to have more children. Those were simply
the facts unencumbered with any taboos or fears or complicating
scenarios of which there were many. As I thought through these
options I thought about the suggestion of another child being
brought into a world to help save my son. I however was at that
point a single mom with two young children and my thoughts went
to questioning. Would it be acceptable to me to have in vitro
fertilization with selective choices of the embryo based on
its genetic match to my son so that he might survive with the
latter subsequent removal of the unwanted fetuses? These are
real life choices that must be made at a time of acceptance
of the death of a loved four year old child. They are things
we would rather not deal with but nevertheless sometimes we
are thrown into scenarios where me must. I acknowledged that
I certainly would want to make choice based on all of the facts
and all options myself as opposed to leaving the decisions to
another. Nevertheless, they are hard decisions when you are
the one and the only one that can make that decision.
There is
really no right or wrong decision they are private decisions
and I personally believe they belong between the person and
physician without government intervention. My choice in regards
to the Bone marrow transplant was to proceed with testing for
all family members who wished to be considered as possible donors.
It was to proceed with a possible mismatch transplant if my
son survived the waiting list and there was no match but I choose
not to consider the option of having another child. I personally
felt it unfair to bring another child into the world for the
pure and sole intent of possibly saving the life of the other.
Had I been planning to have another child for that child alone
I would have proceeded and prayed for a match; but for me to
selectively choose which embryo would live or die based on a
potential HLA match with another child would to me be disrespectful
of the life being created and that one which was already in
existence. To me each child should be a separate entity, loved
and respected for each as their own person. At that point I
didn’t have the knowledge I have today about journeying
and the Medicine Wheel and Spirit but nevertheless traveled
deep within to find the answers that was correct for this situation.
Spirit did guide and answer even though I didn’t label
Spirit as more than energy at that time. My father was the match
to my son the odds were 1:11,000 and that set up another whole
series of ethical questions that needed to be addressed. But
my personal boundary addressing the balance (fine line drawn
not neutrality) between technology and life had been determined
and has certainly shaped my subsequent views.
SilverEagleDreamDancer:
“But
still I question can we stop advancing knowledge because some
might abuse the technology? Wouldn't it be far better to focus
on teaching correct intent and respect rather than limiting
understanding because of fear of possible abuse. Shouldn't the
real debate and focus be over honoring and helping others as
opposed to controlling? I think if profit is taken out of the
equation the primary source (albeit not the only source) of
potential abuse is likewise removed.” I agree. I feel once
the genie is out of the bottle it's too late for the 'should
we's'. It's time to be responsible. Lotus, you are correct the
question is "if". But still I question can we stop
advancing knowledge because some might abuse the technology?
Wouldn't it be far better to focus on teaching correct intent
and respect rather than limiting understanding because of fear
of possible abuse. Shouldn't the real debate and focus be over
honoring and helping others as opposed to controlling? I think
if profit is taken out of the equation the primary source (albeit
not the only source) of potential abuse is likewise removed.
Lotus:
SEDD sums up my sentiments
too Earthwalker.
“But still I question can we
stop advancing knowledge because some might abuse the technology?
Wouldn't it be far better to focus on teaching correct intent
and respect rather than limiting understanding because of fear
of possible abuse. Shouldn't the real debate and focus be over
honoring and helping others as opposed to controlling? I think
if profit is taken out of the equation the primary source (albeit
not the only source) of potential abuse is likewise removed.”
Absolutely, we should be focused on honoring, respecting and
assisting others, instead of the "almighty dollar."
That is my hope and prayer. Will it happen in my lifetime ...
I don't know. Hopefully, we are laying the foundation for what
will serve all our relations best.
BearInMind:
I like the way
you worded your 5 1/2 cents worth, Dragon Veils. What you said
about kids and boundaries also brought to mind that boundaries
are also taught to kids, as far as "what should and shouldn't
be allowed" like, for example, some kids are taught not
to take candy from or talk to strangers. Strangers are people
you don't know. Then the child realizes there are rubber-band
boundaries... "Well mommy is talking to this lady but I
don't know her so she is a stranger to me...." and the
lady offers the kid a piece of candy and asks the kid "What's
your name sweetie?" The kid looks at mommy, remembering
the boundary taught, then the kid is reassured that it's okay
to take candy from and talk to *this* stranger... so the boundary
stretches.... And in light of the fact that some boundaries,
for the most part, are viewed as good to have, there are also
boundaries put up for self-protection, or to guard others from
access to something in ourselves, be it anything from a personal
private space of stored treasures, a space reserved inside where
one retreats for peace and quiet, or even one's basement of
monsters.... point being, humans tend to put different types
of boundaries up, and not necessarily all boundaries are healthy
in that those boundaries not only prevent others from getting
in, but at the same time, it prevents something(s) in ourselves
from getting out. So some of the boundaries kids are taught
they should set are so strongly imposed on them by others that
out of intimidation or fear, the boundary is accepted and put
up ~ no questions asked. So here we have kids walking around
with boundaries set by someone else's fears and failures, and
the kid doesn't even realize that; just accepts the boundaries,
grows up with them, and hopefully realizes all of this at some
point during their life.
This really gets me thinking...
How many kinds of boundaries are there, now that I think of
it? One-way boundaries... two-way boundaries, flexible boundaries,
rigid boundaries, temporary boundaries, permanent boundaries,
boundaries with exceptions, boundaries with exceptions to exceptions....
Lotus:
Bear In Mind, “And
in light of the fact that some boundaries, for the most part,
are viewed as good to have, there are also boundaries put up
for self-protection, or to guard others from access to something
in ourselves, be it anything from a personal private space of
stored treasures, a space reserved inside where one retreats
for peace and quiet, or even one's basement of monsters.”
I can remember a time when boundaries
were foreign to me. I wasn't aware that people with healthy
emotional boundaries could both give and receive from others
and that they had the ability to help others in need when asked
without assuming full responsibility for their survival. It
took a few years to put all that in place. Learning how to set
good healthy boundaries was part of the learning process for
me. Thanks for joining in ...
BearInMind:
“I can remember
a time when boundaries were foreign to me.” I can't. Maybe
that is so for you, but in all honestly, I cannot say it is
so for me, and I'd venture to "speak for" some others
whom I know personally. Even though I did not *know* them as
"boundaries" I still had lots of them as a kid, most
imposed on me by dysfunctional adults. As I said, "Boundaries"
are so wide-ranged. Boundaries even "branch out" to
have an effect on how one reacts when the moral values they
are taught are seemingly treaded on by others; the boundaries
people have even come into play when the "manners"
people are taught from childhood are not of the same caliber
as others... Like, not everyone was taught that children should
be seen and not heard... not everyone, therefore, feels the
need to shut up and stay quiet when there is a conversation
going on. I'd say that, taking this type of a boundary as an
example, some kids are taught to address their parents as either
"Mom and Dad" or "Mommy and Daddy" maybe
even "Ma and Pop" ~ whatever the case... on the OTHER
hand ... on the OTHER hand we have more fingers Just kidding...
On the OTHER hand, there are kids who are raised to feel comfortable
calling their parents by their given names, or even nicknames.
Boundaries come to light (maybe not known by the *word* "boundaries")
when one kid hears his friend call his mom Peggy, then when
he goes home and tries to call his mom Samantha, he gets a verbal
beating ...to establish the boundaries... how far you're allowed
to cross... Hmmm... A better example would probably be the person
who is raised to feel comfortable joining in conversations with
the grown-ups, joins in without experiencing as much mental
turmoil that the person who has a boundary (restricted limit)
in speaking up might have. The person who has that kind of a
boundary that they won't cross, and that they scorn others for
crossing was taught to them. So I'd say boundaries exist in
everyone, but coming to know them as "boundaries"
is a horse of a different color.
Lotus:
Well good for you, I am
glad it wasn't so in your life.
BearInMind:
Wait. I didn't
say it wasn't so in my life. You said, "I can remember
a time when boundaries were foreign to me." and I said
"I can't." As in "I can't remember." But
I never said it wasn't so, okay?
Dragonfly
Dezignz
Boundaries in my opinion
are instilled inside us when we are young, then we work with
our integrities, what we can deal with ourselves, what we can
deal with when it comes to responsibilities. We have to respect
ourselves as well as other people. That young man probably didn't
have children, or he would not be so easily converted to no
boundaries. The one thing that no human being can do, now or
probably ever, is to put a soul into a body, any soul, ant,
cat, elephant or human. Only by birth can that happen. It is
the Great Mystery of Life.
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Libraries
are on this row
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INDEX
Page 3
(Main Section, Medicine Wheel, Native Languages &
Nations, Symbology)
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INDEX
Page 5
(Sacred Feminine & Masculine, Stones & Minerals)
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Copyright: Cinnamon Moon & River WildFire Moon (Founders.)
2000-date
All rights reserved.
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